Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

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Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Edward Rolison
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway. 

So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer. 
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume. 

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way? 

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B' involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+ inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick? (trying to do  that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking? 

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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

basilberntsen
I had the same issue and was able to force the TDP relationship to sync (I forget how, but it was hacky), and the CDOT volume got corrupted. I needed to open a ticket to even delete it. That freaked me out and I decided to take a double outage window.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Edward Rolison <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway. 

So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer. 
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume. 

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way? 

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B' involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+ inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick? (trying to do  that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking? 

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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Tim McCarthy
In reply to this post by Edward Rolison
Sounds about right. there is no QSM into or on cDOT.

The other option you have, if space is not an issue, you could do multiple VSM and then delete what you do not want in each.

Use 8.3 or higher and the Snapmirror transition guide in the Documents section and no need to worry about it be "hacky" as Basil indicated in his use.

--tmac

Tim McCarthy, Principal Consultant

Proud Member of the #NetAppATeam

I Blog at TMACsRack




On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Edward Rolison <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway. 

So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer. 
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume. 

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way? 

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B' involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+ inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick? (trying to do  that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking? 

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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Michael Bergman
In reply to this post by Edward Rolison
On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
> I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.
>
> For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
> migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high
> file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway.

Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often
desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this messing
around with QSM and VSM.
Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for the
purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data.  It works over NFS, so
there's no problem with compatibility.

With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of the
data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the superflous
files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut over window).
Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to pull this off, if
not then...

Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the
best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the inodes
it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track of a state
that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which makes it a
very different and effective animal than anything else I've ever seen or
herad of

/M

> So - what I'm thinking is:
>
> QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
> VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.
>
> Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?
>
> Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
> involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post
> cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
> seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
> can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
> inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)
>
> It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound
> to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
> (trying to do that now)
>
> Is there a better approach I should be taking?
>

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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Michael Bergman
In reply to this post by Tim McCarthy
On 2016-08-25 13:05, tmac wrote:
> The other option you have, if space is not an issue, you could do multiple
> VSM and then delete what you do not want in each.

I agree.
Using this method, in combination with xcp, is probably the smartest but it
can take a good bit of work to set it all up and figure it out -- so you
know you can handle your [one single] change windows

> Use 8.3 or higher and the Snapmirror transition guide in the Documents
> section and no need to worry about it be "hacky" as Basil indicated in
> his  use.

I concur

/M
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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Tim McCarthy
In reply to this post by Michael Bergman
DAMN! How'd I forget about that! 

As long as you have NFS access (and there are no CIFS ACLs on the files) XCP is the bomb!

VERY VERY fast

http://mysupport.netapp.com/tools/info/ECMLP2357425I.html?productID=62115

--tmac

Tim McCarthy, Principal Consultant

Proud Member of the #NetAppATeam

I Blog at TMACsRack


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Michael Bergman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high
file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway.

Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this messing around with QSM and VSM.
Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for the purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data.  It works over NFS, so there's no problem with compatibility.

With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of the data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the superflous files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut over window). Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to pull this off, if not then...

Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the inodes it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track of a state that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which makes it a very different and effective animal than anything else I've ever seen or herad of

/M


So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post
cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound
to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
(trying to do that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking?


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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

basilberntsen
In reply to this post by Michael Bergman
To clarify, the setup I was testing was a QSM between volumes in 7-mode, deleting the QSM and shared snapshots on those two volumes, then trying to sync a transition snapmirror between the former QSM target and CDOT. The issue was that I couldn't sync the transition snapmirror while QSM was active, and forcing it (I forget how) caused corruption in CDOT.

XCP is, like you said, only NFS. If the files are NTFS, which is usually the case, splitting volumes can only be done with a snapmirror to a new volume then deletion of the files in the volume outside the targeted folder/qtree. Deleting high file count data will take a long time, and depending on the volumes involved, there might not be sufficient room to double up like this. 

The last option is a robocopy. You can multithread these to reduce the outage window, but it's going to be a long outage.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Michael Bergman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high
file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway.

Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this messing around with QSM and VSM.
Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for the purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data.  It works over NFS, so there's no problem with compatibility.

With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of the data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the superflous files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut over window). Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to pull this off, if not then...

Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the inodes it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track of a state that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which makes it a very different and effective animal than anything else I've ever seen or herad of

/M


So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post
cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound
to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
(trying to do that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking?


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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

basilberntsen
In reply to this post by Tim McCarthy
I've found that the ratio of NTFS to Unix permission styles in the shops I've worked at is very high. XCP is extremely interesting, but still a tool with a limited surface area.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:18 AM, tmac <[hidden email]> wrote:
DAMN! How'd I forget about that! 

As long as you have NFS access (and there are no CIFS ACLs on the files) XCP is the bomb!

VERY VERY fast

http://mysupport.netapp.com/tools/info/ECMLP2357425I.html?productID=62115

--tmac

Tim McCarthy, Principal Consultant

Proud Member of the #NetAppATeam

I Blog at TMACsRack


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Michael Bergman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high
file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway.

Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this messing around with QSM and VSM.
Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for the purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data.  It works over NFS, so there's no problem with compatibility.

With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of the data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the superflous files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut over window). Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to pull this off, if not then...

Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the inodes it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track of a state that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which makes it a very different and effective animal than anything else I've ever seen or herad of

/M


So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post
cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound
to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
(trying to do that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking?


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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Michael Bergman
In reply to this post by basilberntsen
On 2016-08-25 13:17, Basil wrote:
> XCP is, like you said, only NFS. If the files are NTFS, which is usually
> the case,

Very true. I'm in a world where the opposite is true:
"If the files are NFS, which is usually the case"..."

I'm sorry.

> splitting volumes can only be done with a snapmirror to a new volume
> then deletion of the files in the volume outside the targeted folder/qtree.

I concur.

> Deleting high file count data will take a long time, and depending on the
> volumes involved, there might not be sufficient room to double up like this.

Yes, but that would not matter (how long it takes) if there's enough "extra
space" so to speak. It could take days, a week... no one will really care,
right? The only thing that could be bad, is if the target C.DOT node is
small. File deletes pressure WAFL quite a lot, you can get performance
issues and W latency can shoot up. A lot, in the worst case, due to massive
amounts of small file deletes


> The last option is a robocopy. You can multithread these to reduce the
> outage window, but it's going to be a long outage.

Robocopy is one of the tools available for handling CIFS (NTFS) data. There
are a few others, but I have not tried any of them exept this one and it
works really well (at least then, it was many years ago now).

<http://www.xxcopy.com/xcpywhat.htm>

This SW is still actively developed, alive and kicking, so this is what I
would use if I had to do CIFS/NTFS file copying this way

/M

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Michael Bergman
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
>
>         I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.
>
>         For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
>         migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with
>         really high
>         file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together
>         anyway.
>
>
>     Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often
>     desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this
>     messing around with QSM and VSM.
>     Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for
>     the purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data. It works over
>     NFS, so there's no problem with compatibility.
>
>     With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of
>     the data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the
>     superflous files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut
>     over window). Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to
>     pull this off, if not then...
>
>     Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the
>     best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the
>     inodes it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track
>     of a state that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which
>     makes it a very different and effective animal than anything else I've
>     ever seen or herad of
>
>     /M
>
>         So - what I'm thinking is:
>
>         QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
>         VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.
>
>         Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?
>
>         Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
>         involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and -
>         post
>         cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
>         seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
>         can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
>         inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)
>
>         It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is
>         inbound
>         to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
>         (trying to do that now)
>
>         Is there a better approach I should be taking?
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Toasters mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://www.teaparty.net/mailman/listinfo/toasters
>     <http://www.teaparty.net/mailman/listinfo/toasters>
>
>

--
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Engineering Hub Stockholm                Phone +46 10 7152945
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Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Edward Rolison
In reply to this post by basilberntsen

Well, I have just tried a local qsm, a break and then a vsm to cdot.

That seemed to work, but I am not sure if the resync will work sufficiently well, but obviously I need to be able to resync to do a differential copy.

I might do this and then rsync (or xcp) to catch up.


On 25 Aug 2016 12:00, "Basil" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I had the same issue and was able to force the TDP relationship to sync (I forget how, but it was hacky), and the CDOT volume got corrupted. I needed to open a ticket to even delete it. That freaked me out and I decided to take a double outage window.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Edward Rolison <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.

For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with really high file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together anyway. 

So - what I'm thinking is:

QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer. 
VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume. 

Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way? 

Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B' involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and - post cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+ inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)

It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is inbound to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick? (trying to do  that now)

Is there a better approach I should be taking? 

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RE: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

Parisi, Justin
In reply to this post by Michael Bergman
XCP support for NTFS is being worked on, FWIW. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Bergman
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:33 AM
To: Toasters
Subject: Re: Snapmirror TDP from 7mode to CDOT - Can I 'daisy chain'?

On 2016-08-25 13:17, Basil wrote:
> XCP is, like you said, only NFS. If the files are NTFS, which is
> usually the case,

Very true. I'm in a world where the opposite is true:
"If the files are NFS, which is usually the case"..."

I'm sorry.

> splitting volumes can only be done with a snapmirror to a new volume
> then deletion of the files in the volume outside the targeted folder/qtree.

I concur.

> Deleting high file count data will take a long time, and depending on
> the volumes involved, there might not be sufficient room to double up like this.

Yes, but that would not matter (how long it takes) if there's enough "extra space" so to speak. It could take days, a week... no one will really care, right? The only thing that could be bad, is if the target C.DOT node is small. File deletes pressure WAFL quite a lot, you can get performance issues and W latency can shoot up. A lot, in the worst case, due to massive amounts of small file deletes


> The last option is a robocopy. You can multithread these to reduce the
> outage window, but it's going to be a long outage.

Robocopy is one of the tools available for handling CIFS (NTFS) data. There are a few others, but I have not tried any of them exept this one and it works really well (at least then, it was many years ago now).

<http://www.xxcopy.com/xcpywhat.htm>

This SW is still actively developed, alive and kicking, so this is what I would use if I had to do CIFS/NTFS file copying this way

/M

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Michael Bergman
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 2016-08-25 12:06, Edward Rolison wrote:
>
>         I'm migrating a bunch of volumes from a 7 mode filer, to CDOT.
>
>         For various reasons, I'd _like_ to split these volumes apart prior to
>         migration - mostly around filecount. We have a few qtrees with
>         really high
>         file counts, and generally they don't make sense to group together
>         anyway.
>
>
>     Splitting up file trees that have grown too large in this way is often
>     desirable when migrating, but you should avoid doing it with this
>     messing around with QSM and VSM.
>     Instead you should best use the NetApp tool xcp, which was created for
>     the purpose of effective 7m -> C.DOT migration of data. It works over
>     NFS, so there's no problem with compatibility.
>
>     With this you can use a suported SnapMirrir 7m -> C.DOT for the bulk of
>     the data, pick out parts that you do with xcp and then delete the
>     superflous files afterwards (when it has landed on C.DOT, after your cut
>     over window). Hopefully you have some extra swing space to be able to
>     pull this off, if not then...
>
>     Yes, I know it's daunting w.r.t. Very High Filecount. But it's still the
>     best way IMO... rsync is impossible due to the traversing of all the
>     inodes it does every single time on source and target, xcp keeps track
>     of a state that avoids this and it has its own NFS stack built in, which
>     makes it a very different and effective animal than anything else I've
>     ever seen or herad of
>
>     /M
>
>         So - what I'm thinking is:
>
>         QSM from source qtree to 'staging' volume within filer.
>         VSM from staging volume to CDOT TDP volume.
>
>         Should I be able to do this, or is there a better way?
>
>         Ideally - I'd like to avoid a 'double cutover' scenario. My 'plan B'
>         involves just creating about 10 replicas of the source volume, and -
>         post
>         cutover - delete all the stuff I didn't need from each of them, but this
>         seems a suboptimal solution. (I think I have the same problem, in that I
>         can't lower the inodes of the volume, so I'll have 10 volumes with 100M+
>         inodes, instead of 10 with considerably fewer)
>
>         It certainly seems like a TDP snapmirror doesn't work when a QSM is
>         inbound
>         to the volume in question - but a break and resync _might_ do the trick?
>         (trying to do that now)
>
>         Is there a better approach I should be taking?
>
>
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Michael Bergman
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